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Post by altaedm on Apr 7, 2022 14:25:39 GMT
Charlie - Wow very nice the scenery alone is worth the play (I have a soft spot for tree lined courses) this is a very challenging course - took everything I had to break par  Here is how I set it up tough conditions  The card  Greens are very difficult at 187 Vey well done Ian Gave it a second go - still impressed  |
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Post by charlie on Apr 8, 2022 4:08:26 GMT
Thanks for playing Ian and for your comments. What is 187 for greens? I see this comment every now and then but I never know what it means, lol.
I went a little crazy with the trees because, as you know, I have been working on two links course designs. So I needed a change of scenery. I would be interested in your comments on the fairness of the doglegs. There are 9 holes that dogleg left, partly because all the holes go around the lake in counterclockwise fashion, so they are continuously headed left. But, to counterbalance this, there are 9 holes that don't dogleg left. One of my goals has been to leave the player with a reasonable chance to negotiate the corners of the dogleg holes if he hits a good tee shot. Right now, from the tee I think a player can get into position for a clear second shot with either a driver or long fairway wood. But I have not tested this in high winds. I'm a little concerned that a player may find trees blocking his second shot if he tees off in a high headwind, particularly if he goes a little left off the tee. So I guess I need to sort this. I cut several trees out of the corner of Number 6 to remedy a similar concern.
Of course, anyone wanting to play high winds can move up to the forward tees if need be. And, as long as the player plays to the right side of the fairway, he should have sufficient room (even if a bit short) to work a draw around the corner. But if he ends up short and left off the tee, those trees are going to be a problem.
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Post by The Boss on Apr 8, 2022 11:27:39 GMT
Charlie, I haven't played your course yet but I intend to this weekend. 187 is VERY FAST greens, as opposed to MEDIUM speed which is 144. FAST is, I think, 167.
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Post by altaedm on Apr 8, 2022 12:56:57 GMT
Thanks for playing Ian and for your comments. What is 187 for greens? I see this comment every now and then but I never know what it means, lol. I went a little crazy with the trees because, as you know, I have been working on two links course designs. So I needed a change of scenery. I would be interested in your comments on the fairness of the doglegs. There are 9 holes that dogleg left, partly because all the holes go around the lake in counterclockwise fashion, so they are continuously headed left. But, to counterbalance this, there are 9 holes that don't dogleg left. One of my goals has been to leave the player with a reasonable chance to negotiate the corners of the dogleg holes if he hits a good tee shot. Right now, from the tee I think a player can get into position for a clear second shot with either a driver or long fairway wood. But I have not tested this in high winds. I'm a little concerned that a player may find trees blocking his second shot if he tees off in a high headwind, particularly if he goes a little left off the tee. So I guess I need to sort this. I cut several trees out of the corner of Number 6 to remedy a similar concern. Of course, anyone wanting to play high winds can move up to the forward tees if need be. And, as long as the player plays to the right side of the fairway, he should have sufficient room (even if a bit short) to work a draw around the corner. But if he ends up short and left off the tee, those trees are going to be a problem. First off thank you, for taking the time to design, I personally do not have the skill set to do this, the dog legs are perfect don't change a thing - yes you can get into trouble but a pitch out or a second shot draw around the corner will still leave you a good chance at par. The thing I dislike about most of the designs is they are birdie fests and I find that an insult to the game. that is why I like what Bob has done with the settings in his tour. The game was/is structured around par and from your back tee's, with firm fairways par is a challenge, the greens are perfect and well thought out, your long tough holes offer respectable greens, your shorter holes offer tougher greens GREAT JOB - IMO this is what separates designers. I mean look at Agusta same thing. I normally don't play other societies just because they are birdie fests - I will go rip though one every once in awhile but get bored very easy and lose interest. When I play a golf course, I want to enjoy the scenery and I want to be made to think every shot out and your course did that for me. Bob and I talked about this for hours when he made the first tour, and that is why he decided on playing against the pros. That is why he posts leaderboards, makes you think about your next round. In conclusion DO NOT change a thing - as I said I had to work my ass off to break par. My grandfather (rip) who first had me hold a club told me one time and I will never forget it - It is not the score on the card that is important its the name on the card that's important (did you enjoy the company did you enjoy the day) and I enjoyed playing your course. Ian |
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Post by charlie on Apr 9, 2022 4:22:41 GMT
Thanks Ian for your kind and encouraging comments. I reached out for some feedback on this course at TGC Tours with no success. I received some constructive feedback there earlier from Sandgroper on Skellig Ring Ocean Course after I had published it, including some suggestions I might have implemented if I had not already published it as final. But I may go ahead and release Interlaken Forest as final. I have noticed that I often disagree with the feedback given to other designers at TGC Tours. I think a lot of their advice is based on personal opinion, plus they appear to be catering to the preferences of the TGC Tour players. For example, some reviewers have a strong negative opinion of blind shots. I recognize that the real tour players dislike blind shots because they are playing for money. But golf course architects are somewhat divided over blind shots (and more the approach shot than the tee shot). Fazio has blind tee shots all over Pinehurst #8. Some of the greatest courses in golf history have blind shots including Pebble Beach (famously the tee shot on #8, the most difficult hole), Augusta National (also number 8, second shot, although this was originally designed as a 3-shot hole - it has become a 2-shot hole like almost every other par 5 the tour pros play), St. Andrews (almost every hole, but famously number 17), etc. Pebble Beach Number 8You sometimes see folks citing Alister MacKenzie for the idea that blind shots are taboo. But what he wrote is a little different: RULE 6. There should be a minimum of blindness for the approach shots.MacKenzie's 13 PrinciplesI know MacKenzie designed at least one hole with a blind tee shot (and I suspect several others) because I played it - Number 16 at Pasatiempo. I have a picture of it. I had the good fortune to play Pasatiempo in Santa Cruz with my son several years ago. MacKenzie designed Pasatiempo for Marion Hollins who was an advocate for women's golf and an accomplished amateur golfer. She beat Alexa Stirling in 1921 to win the U.S. Women's Amateur. MacKenzie has credited the design idea for the 16th hole at Cypress Point to Hollins; the long par 3 all carry over water to a green perched on the cliffs. MacKenzie said it was her idea. Hollins and MacKenzie Collaboration
Golfers like to argue about which is the best of MacKenzie's designs and often cite Augusta National or Cypress Point. He also had a small hand in the design of Pebble Beach. But MacKenzie's favorite was Pasatiempo. He eventually chose to live there on the 6th fairway. MacKenzie and Pasatiempo
I am rambling now. Don't get me started on golf history or golf course design, or I will bend your ear. Thanks again for your comments. Charlie |
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Post by randy on Apr 9, 2022 9:00:24 GMT
Interesting charlie,
I wish I could remember so many different holes lol, good stuff charlie.
I played Skellig Ring last night, reminded me of Kilcairn Bay, tough and wonderful. I know you put that little teaser patch of grass in the 9th fairway just so I could try and hit it.......lol
As usual, your courses bring one to enjoyment. Those greens are excellent, played on fast. One better hit the right level.
Thumbs up
randy
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Post by charlie on Apr 9, 2022 12:44:50 GMT
Thanks, Randy; glad you enjoyed your round at Skellig Ring Ocean Course. I am working on the companion course which will be on the same land plot, but more inland, so as you play you will see all the SROC holes off in the distance closer to the ocean. I am designing it as a local club or community course, not a tournament course, so a little shorter and less challenging - good for a relaxing round. But you will still need to think about your shot before hitting it.
In hindsight, that "patch of grass" on nine was a mistake - one of the reasons I will look for feedback before releasing new courses. Originally I had planned to place a large bunker at around the 270 yard mark in the middle of the fairway, a distance right between a driver and a fairway wood. I would have created a small "patch of grass" in the 280-300 area for aggressive players who wanted to take the risk with a driver. Then I got the "bright idea" of an island fairway surrounded by bunkers. And that idea could have worked if I had executed better but, after releasing the course, I realized that you cannot hit the small patch of grass with a driver and hold the fairway. I did create an alternative tee shot option on nine, which is the more reachable first portion of the fairway off to the right. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to reach the green from there, especially if there is any wind. Live and learn.
The tee shot on nine to the island fairway is also completely blind which is unfair considering the landing area is tiny and replete with bunkers. So that is another weakness. But I like to build a course using the natural contours of the land plot and make the hole fit the contours; not bulldoze the contours to make them fit the hole. That will lead to some blind shots. But, by being a little more thoughtful about how I will lay out the hole on the contours presented and by crafting the landing area to be more forgiving of a blind shot, I can improve my design. And I moved more cyber dirt in creating Interlaken Forest. So I am teachable, lol. Live and learn.
So nine is probably the weakest hole in that design, or at least the most poorly executed; and I could have avoided the problem by more thorough play-testing.
My favorites are one, three, sixteen, seventeen and eighteen. Those last three are designed to make the player focus carefully and execute well to win a tournament. Lapses in concentration or poor execution of tee shots and approach shots on these holes can lose the tournament.
And thanks for the shout-out on Kilcairn Bay. That may be the design I had the most fun with in JN6.
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Post by The Boss on Apr 9, 2022 13:01:38 GMT
Ian and I had a chat about which tour to replicate once the current 2000 PGA Tour season finishes. We agreed that we should try a Champions Tour season (the old Senior Tour). I suspect that there will be a lot of actual courses used on that tour which will be unavailable. That means we will have to find substitute courses, and I envisage those being a mixture of real and fictional. It may well be that we use one, or maybe more, of your courses Charlie, as they appear to have met with critical acclaim!! Of course, you will be banned from playing in those events as your overly thorough knowledge of the courses would give you a very unfair advantage over the rest of us BWAHAHAHAHAHA...
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Post by altaedm on Apr 9, 2022 13:48:10 GMT
I know MacKenzie designed at least one hole with a blind tee shot (and I suspect several others) because I played it - Number 16 at Pasatiempo. I have a picture of it. I had the good fortune to play Pasatiempo in Santa Cruz with my son several years ago. MacKenzie designed Pasatiempo for Marion Hollins who was an advocate for women's golf and an accomplished amateur golfer. She beat Alexa Stirling in 1921 to win the U.S. Women's Amateur. MacKenzie has credited the design idea for the 16th hole at Cypress Point to Hollins; the long par 3 all carry over water to a green perched on the cliffs. MacKenzie said it was her idea. OMG Charlie - lets meet in Vegas and talk golf - you are a historian - Marion Hollins as you know had a great influence on Agusta and a hand in design - I have studied the golf swing my whole life I became addicted as a young boy - born and raised on a dairy farm in Alberta we had no money nor could we travel (the cows needed to be milked everyday) - but every week we got a paper called the Star weekly and in there one day was picture of st Andrews from that day on I was hooked - then a story about Ben Hogan that was it I became a golf fan and admired other places around the world through the eyes of a golfer - we had no clubs or golf courses but an old 9 hole sand green track at Stony Plain Alberta - which is where I went to High School so I could sneak over and watch some of the old farmers playing, I might add it was not pretty just a natural pasture with some flags in it. I studied Ben Hogan and his swing for hours every sports writer wrote about Ben Hogan and one of the most famous books published in 1957 Ben Hogan's Five Lessons - it had illustrations of the golf swing - I dreamed of one day being able to play golf, I played hockey up until Junior and curled and played baseball like every other kid but my dream was to play golf - finally after many years I was able to afford to play and bought an old set of FG17 Wilson Staff blades (sweet spot the size of a dime) - I became obsessed with the golf club and needed to understand the dynamics and why and how it reacted, so I enrolled at Golf Smith and became a golf smith, and 40 years later I still have the obsession and still to this day even tho I have lost much of my eye sight and I am battling this terrible disease (cancer) I can go out in my shop and get lost in the simple task of changing shafts or grips. Hogan and Palmer were masters at tinkering with their clubs between rounds, it was not all about how the club looked it was about how it worked - if you looked at the early years of Palmer his clubs looked like they just came out of the garage can he would grid and bend them by hand between rounds. Man I could go on for hours one last famous Hogan quote "its in the dirt" Back to the game - I respect the game - I respect the players - I respect the designers BUT I disrespect anyone that insults the game and I find most of the designs and the societies disrespectful of the game, and that is why I love what playpgatour is doing and I admire the work Bob puts into it. Do we get frustrated of course we do that is what makes the game exciting it has never been dominated by anyone person for very long - there were and are some greats but they come and go - Morris - Jones - Hogan - Palmer - Nicolaus - Woods to name a few BUT if you were to ask them, they would tell you they never quit trying to be better. Talk about rambling on Onward - Ian |
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Post by altaedm on Apr 9, 2022 16:02:57 GMT
went out and set different conditions with high wind wow now that was a challenge - no sure how many squirrels I killed !!!   |
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Post by The Boss on Apr 11, 2022 19:33:56 GMT
Used Ian's Medium wind conditions - boy, I bet he was in seventh heaven with all those tree-lined fairways!!
First impressions were very good - I dropped a few strokes trying to get my rhythm going, but eventually birdied #8. On the back nine I birdied #12 and #17 and parred everything else for a 76. I should have birdied #18 too but it seemed like my 6-foot putt hit a spike mark and was diverted off its' line. Pretty good for me on a course that I would say is very tough.
I didn't like the flat areas on some of the greens, but that's just a pet hate of mine. I also thought the greens on #9 and #14 were slightly extreme.
On the whole I think this is a very good test. Visually it looks good but imo it could do with a fair bit of 'eye candy' to bring it alive more.
Excellent effort Charlie, I look forward to playing the finished article!!
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Post by charlie on Apr 12, 2022 4:01:14 GMT
Thanks, Bob, for playing a round at Interlaken Forest. And thanks for your comments. I will take a closer look at the 18th green and see if it could do with some smoothing. There is a fairly dramatic elevation change between the upper and lower sections of the greens on 9 and 14 (and a few other holes). But if your approach shot ends up on the correct level, your putt should be pretty easy. Your approach shots must have ended up on the wrong level. I expect this to happen to a golfer a few times in each round, so I put the flattish areas around all the pins to lessen the sting if you find yourself in the wrong section of the green. You will generally have a very difficult first putt from the wrong section of the green that must travel up or down one of those slopes. If you hit a good first putt from the wrong section (which will be challenging) to the correct section, the flattish area around the pin is your reward because it generally provides a makeable putt from inside 12 feet or so. This keeps par in play. To make birdies, you have to be putting for birdies in the correct sections of the greens .... or make some very difficult putts up or down those slopes. The design favors ball strikers over putters. Hogan would love it, lol. I'm not a big eye candy guy. I generally design something I like to play, so I focus more on function than aesthetics. But, hey, I did give you a moose, a stag, a fawn, two washrooms, two shelters, three bridges, two sailboats, a small neighborhood, a driving range and a parking lot filled with cars...  Thanks again for playing. I really appreciate you taking the time to play it. |
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Post by altaedm on Apr 12, 2022 17:00:41 GMT
Thanks, Bob, for playing a round at Interlaken Forest. And thanks for your comments. I will take a closer look at the 18th green and see if it could do with some smoothing. There is a fairly dramatic elevation change between the upper and lower sections of the greens on 9 and 14 (and a few other holes). But if your approach shot ends up on the correct level, your putt should be pretty easy. Your approach shots must have ended up on the wrong level. I expect this to happen to a golfer a few times in each round, so I put the flattish areas around all the pins to lessen the sting if you find yourself in the wrong section of the green. You will generally have a very difficult first putt from the wrong section of the green that must travel up or down one of those slopes. If you hit a good first putt from the wrong section (which will be challenging) to the correct section, the flattish area around the pin is your reward because it generally provides a makeable putt from inside 12 feet or so. This keeps par in play. To make birdies, you have to be putting for birdies in the correct sections of the greens .... or make some very difficult putts up or down those slopes. The design favors ball strikers over putters. Hogan would love it, lol. I'm not a big eye candy guy. I generally design something I like to play, so I focus more on function than aesthetics. But, hey, I did give you a moose, a stag, a fawn, two washrooms, two shelters, three bridges, two sailboats, a small neighborhood, a driving range and a parking lot filled with cars...  Thanks again for playing. I really appreciate you taking the time to play it. Perfect response Charlie - and I agree with you - ball striking must be the the objective of the game - not hit a green and get a bird, this issue with this game over real golf is the 3D aspect - on a real course from 100 yards in you can see the undulations of the grass and different colors and textures - with this game you are at the mercy of standing over your putter to see the sort of lines, I love the severity of some of the greens but then I am a Hogan fan not a gamer. I am not sure what Bob means as eye candy maybe he could explain it, I would like to understand it as well - when I am out there I am concentrating on the course and my shot that's why I am there. It is and always will be hard to please everyone BUT you do need to respect everyone's individual opinions if asked. I doubt that Jones or Jack ever cared about anything other than what they saw on a virgin piece of real estate and designed to the strength of how they played the game hence the work overs even at Agusta after so many years. These are my opinion's only not meaning to insult anyone. |
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Post by charlie on Apr 13, 2022 13:49:44 GMT
I agree Ian, and no disrespect was intended. I sincerely appreciate Bob (and you and Randy) taking the time to play and offer comments. I assume, when Bob said eye candy, he may have meant more aesthetically sculpted bunkers (not my strength), more visible planting, a not so basic clubhouse, and perhaps some more views of the lake from strategic vantage points around the course. But he may have something entirely different in mind. And, like you, I would be interested in his thoughts if he cares to elaborate.
I did have specific goals when I designed this course like the design of the greens, so I offered some explanation of my design strategy for the greens, but I recognize that everyone has their own thoughts and preferences about what makes an enjoyable and playable course. And they are free to express those. I consider them. All thoughts and ideas are welcome.
Thanks again for your response.
On a side note, the BETA version of the companion course to Skellig Ring Ocean Course is now complete, so I will probably release it sometime today. This is another 18 holes which I have placed on the same land plot with SROC, so together they form a 36-hole links golf complex (but only the new 18 are playable in this design). I also created a small community nearby and a narrow road leading from the community to the golf complex. SROC was designed as a tournament course; this new course is more like a public or small club course designed for the locals to have a relaxing round of golf. It is a bit shorter, but I think it is still fairly challenging.
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Post by charlie on Apr 14, 2022 0:50:35 GMT
Just an update. I finalized Interlaken Forest today and just published it in final form for both TGC 2019 and PGA 2K21. So the final version is now available for both games.
I will wait a few days on SRF Beta to see if anyone has changes or additions to recommend. Then I will publish it in final form for both games.
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